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Minutes
March 25, 2004
Meeting between IBM and CSU held at IBM Boulder
The meeting opened at 9:00/9:10? a.m. with the
attendees introducing themselves.
Attendees from Colorado State University (CSU)
at Ft. Collins, CO:
Scott Webb - University Advancement
Prof. Michael A. De Miranda - School of Education
and ISTeC EAC Co-Chairman
Prof. Derek Lile - Electrical and Computer Engineering
(former chair)
Prof. Cap Smith - Computer Information Systems (School
of Business)
Prof. Sanjay Rajopadehye - Computer Science, Electrical
Engineering and ISTeC RAC Chairman
Sandra Dailey - Graduate School
Attendees from the IBM Boulder site located at
6300 Diagonal Hwy, Boulder, CO:
Dr. Bradford Brooks, Distinguished Engineer, Corporate
(Toxology)
Jay Smith, Software Engineer, Printing Systems Division,
Dr. Joan L. Mitchell, IBM Fellow, Printing Systems
Division
The following were unable to attend, but expect
to participate in the future:
Prof. Darrell Whitley - Chairman Department of
Computer Science
Prof. Hari Iyer, Dept of Statistics + distance education
program
Prof. H.J. Siegel, Computer Science and Electrical
and Computer Engineering
Victor Walker, IBM SDF e-business Strategy &
Architecture
This was the first meeting of the Information Science
and Technology Center (ISTeC) Educational Advisory
Committee (EAC) task group co-chaired by Joan L.
Mitchell, IBM, and Mike De Miranda, CSU, created
at the February 13, 2004 ISTeC meeting at CSU.
Jay Smith, IBM Software engineer, who is in the
process of applying to CSU graduate school shared
some of his experiences. He had to leave part way
through the meeting in order to attend Prof. H.J.
Siegel's class at CSU. Jay attended HJ's Boulder
Technical Vitality Council sponsored lecture on
"Robust Resource Allocation in Computing Systems"
at IBM on January, 13, 2004. Jay also went to the
round table that followed the talk. He promptly
started attending HJ's CSU class and that is what
inspired him to apply for graduate school at CSU.
Appendix A captures some of the discussion and
comments made during (and in some cases after) the
meeting. It was noted that the admissions are done
at the department level. Having a department professor
as an advocate makes it much easier to tailor the
requirements to the professional's individual situation.
Credit can be given for past work experience in
some cases. Also the distance learning classes in
one department can often be applied towards the
requirements of another department if relevant.
Everyone was interested in knowing what courses
should be on-line.
Appendix B reproduces the handout generated by
Joan to capture some of her correspondence and thoughts
on this topic. She made it clear to the group that
she was representing her own opinions, but intended
to use the group results to make some recommendations
to IBM.
The group agreed to the following mission statement
for the ISTeC EAC task group: Examine CSU Department
and Graduate School requirements and make recommendations
for additional flexibility to better meet the needs
of IBM-sponsored professionals retraining and completing
advanced degrees.
The first step will be a pilot where CSU professors
from CS, ECE, College of Business, School of Education,
Math, and Statistics (as needed other departments
can be added) will be hosted by Joan L. Mitchell
to give a technical talk about their research and
stay for a roundtable discussion if there is sufficient
demand. The professors will have an interest in
meeting bright potential students. They will be
able to re-direct students to other professors if
the interests would make a better match. Joan committed
to pay the first six speakers honorariums of $100
each. The talks will take place at IBM about once
a month (skipping the summer months).
The CSU attendees left with Joan the following
promotional and program information about graduate
degree programs and certificate programs in their
departments related to IS&T:
CSU Graduate & Professional Bulletin 2003-2004
Master's Degree CIS, Intro to the program
Master of EE and Computer Engineering, Online Distance
Education, emphasis in Telecommunications
MS Computer Science, 100% Online Degree
CSU Distance MBA packet with lots of brochures
The meeting adjourned at 11:30 a.m.
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Appendix A. Additional comments and information
exchanged during or after the meeting.
On the topic of GREs: The GREs have been used to
show the student's commitment. At one time is was
a requirement for all graduate schools. That is
no longer true, but some departments have been slow
to remove the requirement. Joan expressed that GREs
can discourage full-time students from even considering
enrolling in a degree program.
Fixed Application Dates: Actually it is OK to enroll
up to two weeks after classes start.
Start to finish maximum time: In this rapidly changing
world, the information taught in class can become
stale. It is an incentive to move students along
who would otherwise drag their feet.
Class attendance requirements: This is decided
by each professor who has the flexibility to set
the requirements for his own classes. Most professors
are flexible particularly when it comes to necessary
business trips. Working professionals need to make
arrangements with their professors before enrolling
so that there will be no misunderstandings.
Corporate-sponsored professionals: IBM has an acknowledged
strong vetting process and would only sponsor professionals
who are expected to contribute to the business and
have a strong likelihood of future success. The
university must apply its rules uniformly. Not all
corporations would be sending people with a demonstrated
strong track record (e.g. owners of failing start-ups).
The graduate school of admissions would not be able
to know that every corporate sponsored applicant
has been properly vetted.
Institutional culture: The university is built
on the assumption that face-to-face is the preferred
instruction mode. Graduate students have traditionally
provided inexpensive labor to work on research.
Full-time working professions who are conducting
their research off-campus will affect the culture.
Where will the value come from so that after years
of mentoring the students leave as capable junior
scientists. Brad Brooks commented that today's industrial
professionals have become accustomed to remote (e.g.
e-mail, same-time, conference calls, etc) interactions
and team work.
Master's theses are recommended if a student expects
to write a Ph.D. thesis.
The Doctorate of Interdisciplinary Studies lists
the specialization areas. Although arranged through
the School of Education, it does not necessarily
produce an Doctorate of Education.
The STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and
Math) program takes only three semesters for professionals
with degrees in STEM areas to obtain teachers credentials.
The Business School can deliver on-site courses
if 50 people (maybe 35-40?) are committed to obtain
their MBAs. The Business School already offers an
distance MBA (see list of information left at IBM).
If the group needs a "themed" MBA (e.g.
Life sciences+ MBA), this can be arranged.
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Appendix B. Handout generated by Joan L. Mitchell
to provide a basis for some discussion. Not all
topics were covered.
IBM and Colorado State University Meeting
IBM Boulder, CO
March 25, 2004
3/25/04 draft prepared by Joan L. Mitchell
***********************************
Attendees from CSU, Ft. Collins, CO:
Scott Webb - University Advancement
Prof. Michael A. De Miranda - School of Education
& ISTeC EAC Co-Chair
Prof. Derek Lile - ECE
Prof. Cap Smith - Computer Information Systems
Prof. Sanjay Rajopadehye - CS, EE & ISTeC RAC
Chair
Prof. Darrell Whitley - Chair Dept. of CS
Sandra Dailey - Graduate School
***********************************
Attendees from IBM Boulder:
Bradford Brooks, Distinguished Eng., Corporate
(Toxology)
Jay Smith, SW Eng., Printing Systems Division,
Joan L. Mitchell, IBM Fellow, Printing Systems Division
Unable to attend, but wants to be included:
Victor Walker - SDF e-business Strategy & Architecture
***********************************
Extracts from Mike De Miranda's original CSU note
about today's meeting:
"meeting with Joan Mitchell from IBM at Boulder,
to discuss their needs
in the area of graduate education for their professional
employees. ...
Joan ... has agreed to chair a committee to seek
solutions to
educational expansion opportunities for IBM employees
to study at CSU.
... information meeting. ...Joan will present an
overview of the needs and types of IS&T educational
programs they seek to
be involved with."
***********************************
JLM call to IBMers for this meeting:
Subject
Fw: Report on IBM Meeting
The CSU people are coming to talk to us about the
needs of industry for
re-training professionals. I call it "moving
people up the value chain".
Jay Smith (applying to CSU now), Brad Brooks, and
I are definitely
attending. ...
P.S. They understand that this is not an official
IBM position. I'm
co-chair with Mike DeMiranda of a CSU ISTeC advisory
committee on the
topic. This meeting will be primarily to understand
the requirements and
needs of the graduate program at CSU and industry.
***********************************
From a different JLM note to IBMers:
"Welcome to the IBM meeting to be held tomorrow
March 25th from 9-11 on
the Boulder site in Conference Room 105 (Bldg 1).
I want to be sure
that you are all aware that I have agreed to co-chair
a task group under
ISTeC. However, I will be representing my own opinions.
I plan to use
the results of our task group to make some recommendations
to IBM."
***********************************
From Joan L. Mitchell's 2003 Fellow Report:
"Towards the end of 2003 I became convinced
that we need IBMers to
complete technical degrees. I believe that schools
of higher education
need to recognize that returning professionals should
not be treated like
children. When they bring their own money, the rules
should be easy to
bend. Degree programs should be flexible about course
work requirements
(assuming competency is demonstrated by passing
exams). Length of time
restrictions between starting a masters and finishing
a PhD should be
dropped if the professional paused his/her schooling
in order to raise a
family or work full time. This will help us move
our talented people,
laid off workers, and even retirees up the value
chain."
***********************************
Note from a friend about IBM retraining:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/53/35945.html
***********************************
Dr. Ray Morrison
Provost for the Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Technical
Institute &
Mgr for Engineering Workforce Development at the
Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co.
American Society for Engineering Education (ASEE)
where he has served on two
separate occasions as a Director and Board Member
for the Continuing
Professional Development Division (CPD). He is currently
Chair-Elect
for the CPD Division (2003) and serves on the Corporate
Management
Council (CMC).
"Do you want to talk to ASEE CPD graduate
school (?) committee?"
***********************************
Satisfaction vs. Loyalty:
Satisfaction: How happy were you with the job we
did?
Loyalty: How happy will you be to have us do your
next job?
JLM suggestion to industry: Instead of laying off
highly valued
employees, pay tuition and health insurance so they
can afford to go
back to school to retrain themselves.
***********************************
e-mail from JLM sent Jan. 21, 2004
To: a VP at IBM Research
Subject Completing educational degrees
... The subject that I wanted to discuss with you
has to do with ...
encouraging universities to lower barriers to professionals
completing
their degrees.
Some current thoughts on the subject:
Categories:
1. Full-time working professionals with corporate
sponsorship.-
may have business interrupt their ability to be
on campus.
2. Unemployed professionals (recently laid-off?)
who are able to
go to school full-time and be on campus as needed.
3. Retirees who may be switching fields to pursue
their passion,
possibly in a different field - able to be on campus
as needed.
Barriers:
1. Taking GREs (cost, time, pressure) - Waive.
2. Applying by January for starting next Fall -
Allow students
with money to enter at anytime.
3. Must complete Masters and PhD within six years
from start of
masters. -- Waive (already done if Masters done
at a different
university)
4. Class attendance - allow maximum flexibility
if material
mastered e.g. take quizzes ahead of schedule if
business trip scheduled.
***********************************
Edited note from engineer choosing between two
departments for PhD program:
Subject: Dept. A or B for the application
Joan,
I've investigated the choices and Dept. A appears
to be the best option.
Dept. B has a requirement in their handbook that
says the PhD candidate must
complete 9 hours ON CAMPUS in each of 2 consecutive
semesters. This is
untenable for me. They are asking me to be a full
time college student for
two semesters to get started and that's unacceptable.
Dept. A on the other hand does not have the on-campus
requirement. Further they have an on-line Masters
program that might
facilitate with the completion of course work for
the breadth requirement.
After reading through the degree requirements for
both Dept. A and B I came
away thinking that the Dept. A program had less
"hoops" then the Dept. B program.
thanks
***********************************
From a working professional:
Subject Re: Fw: Completing educational degrees
Joan,
These are the two things that work around the rules:
1. Waive GRE general test
2. Take the class as reading course or independent
study if the class is
scheduled at the time that I can't make.
***********************************
Some examples of special programs:
CU's Leeds School of Business Evening MBA program
Regis on-line MBA program
***********************************
From an IBM Research VP:
"new focus on educating current/future students
in the area of services"
"current workforce would benefit form more
formal training in [services]"
"skills"
***********************************
Grady Booch speaking about off-shoring software
engineering jobs
(approximately) "Where will the next generation
of IT architects do
their apprenticeships?"
***********************************
Proposed mission statement of the CSU ISTeC EAC
task group co-chaired by
Prof. Michael A. De Miranda and IBM Fellow Joan
L. Mitchell:
Examine generic/CSU/Department Graduate School
requirements and make
recommendations for additional flexibility to better
meet the needs of
industry for professionals with at least 1/2/5 years
of professional
experience retraining and completing advanced degrees.
Consensus mission statement:
***********************************
Assumptions:
Industrial scholarship programs that allow traditional
full-time
on-campus schooling are outside this scope.
"Cheap" degrees are useless.
***********************************
Barrier - GREs
***********************************
Barrier - Fixed application dates
***********************************
Barrier - Fixed admission dates
***********************************
Barrier - Start to finish maximum time
***********************************
Barrier - Class attendance requirements
***********************************
Barrier - Unexpected business trips
***********************************
Barrier - Family needs
***********************************
Barrier - Residency requirements
***********************************
Category: Full-time working professionals with Corporate
Sponsorship:
***********************************
Category: Part-time working professionals with Corporate
Sponsorship:
***********************************
Category: Consultants (i.e. self-employeed):
***********************************
Category: Unemployed (e.g. recently laid-off)
Unemployment payments forbid being student
***********************************
Category: Retirees who are completing degrees
***********************************
Category: Retirees who are switching fields to pursue
dream/passion
***********************************
Category: Retirees who aren't sure
***********************************
Idea: Give course credit for teaching
(i.e. swap salary/honorarium for tuition)
***********************************
Idea: GRE required a year later if progress not
satisfactory
***********************************
Dr. Joan L. Mitchell
IBM Fellow, Master Inventor,
Member IBM Academy of Technology
joanm@us.ibm.com
(303) 924-4271; 8-263-4271
Fax: (303) 924-6667; 8-263-6667
Assistant, Katheryne Raile
(303) 924-7520; 8-263-7520
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